Hot versus Cold Dutch Oven Baking: an experiment
The recent discussions regarding baking breads in hot versus cold Dutch ovens - those from "Tartine Bread" in particular - prompted today's experiment.
I made two boules of the Country Rye from "Tartine Bread." One I baked starting in a room temperature enameled cast iron Dutch oven. The other I baked in the same Dutch oven, pre-heated. The breads were identical in weight. They were cold retarded overnight in bannetons and then proofed at room temperature for 2 hours before the first bake. The loaf baked in the pre-heated dutch oven proofed for 45 minutes longer, while the other loaf was baking. The second loaf was baked for 7 minutes longer than the first loaf, to get a darker crust.
Boule baked in cool Dutch oven on the left. Boule baked in pre-heated Dutch oven on the right.
In spite of the fact that the loaf baked first was relatively under-proofed, the loaf baked second, in a pre-heated Dutch oven, got slightly better bloom and oven spring. I won't be slicing these until next week. They are for my Thanksgiving guests. So, I don't know if there is any difference in the crumb structure.
Overall, I'm happy with both loaves. The differences are very small - arguably of no significance. While pre-heating the Dutch oven does appear to result in slightly better oven spring, the convenience of not having to pre-heat the Dutch oven may be more advantageous for many bakers.
Addendum: Okay. So, I'm weak. I had to try the bread, since it was the firs time I'd baked it.
The crust is crunchy-chewy. The crumb is less open than the "Basic Country Bread," as expected. The 17% (by Robertson's way of doing baker's math) whole rye does make a difference. The crumb is very cool and tender. The aroma is rather sour, but the flavor is less so. The surprise was the prominent whole wheat flavor tone, even though all the WW is in the levain, and it only amounts to 50 g out of a total of 1100 g (my way of doing baker's math). I expect the flavors to meld by breakfast time tomorrow. I think this will make great toast with Almond butter and apricot preserves.
Country Rye, cut loaf
Country rye, crumb
David
Submitted to YeastSpotting
Comments
Hi David,
Thanks for taking the time to do this test. As you say, there really is no appreciable difference in the end result. As for the loaves, they look excellent! Great colour and spring on both. I hope you enjoy your Country rye as much as I've enjoyed mine. Wishing you and yours a Happy and safe Thanksgiving.
All the best,
Franko
Both are beautiful boules, David. How large are your Dutch ovens? What do you use for proofing?
I'm currently reading Tartine Bread and enjoying it. I guess I had expected something new and unusual, but the mixing and folding techniques are something I'm comfortable with, especially as I've been using SteveB's double hydration, hand mixing method lately in my baguette follies.
What I can't visualize, however, is his instruction of inverting the basket containing the bread and turning the dough into the hot pan. I imagine you have to be wearing OveGloves or some other protection, which are clunky. I can see proofed dough falling into the pan and going plop and splat.
How is this accomplished without affecting the dough?
The DO I used is about 5-6 qts, I'd estimate. (I haven't measured it.)
I used linen-lined willow bannetons to proof these loaves - the 1.5 lb size.
As far as transferring the dough to the hot DO, I transferred to parchment slings, scored, then lowered the loaves in the sling into the DO.
There is a really nice video of transferring a boule into a hot La Cloche on Breadtopia.com. You grasp the banneton with your thumbs and place your fingers on the dough. Then, you turn your banneton over, still holding the dough in with your fingers. When the banneton is properly positioned, centered over the Cloche, you extend your fingers, letting the boule drop into the Cloche base. This should work with a DO, I'd think.
David
Watched the video - the cloche bottom has no depth, so the dough doesn't drop as far as it would with a DO.
While I have a five quart Lodge DO and a 10" Lodge fry pan which the large pot covers perfectly (the combo cooker concept), I think lowering the dough using parchment strips makes more sense than having to lift a heavy hot pot and center it over the hot fry pan.
Appreciate the info.
Thanksgiving. Will you freeze them until then ?
Anna
Unless I have to taste one ... just a slice ... 'cause I have to be sure it's good enough to serve ... and I'm weak.
David
Thanks for testing the two methods, David.
I looked at the photo first and noticed my loaves were not that dark. Rye would be the difference. LOL
Both times I tried with the unheated Dutch oven, I let the bread rise in the Dutch oven. Nice texture and holes throughout. Nice crust color top and bottom. A probe thermometer was used to check when they were done.
Used four-quart, cast iron Dutch oven. Mine were very slightly under-proofed; checked with "poke" test.
Since you saw no appreciable difference in the end result, I will happily stick with using the unheated Dutch oven.
Happy Thanksgiving!
how much dough is in the 4-quart DO (that is, what's the weight of the dough)?
are you using enameled cast iron or non-enameled?
thx - SF
Apologies for not seeing your question before.
I used the NYT Lahey recipe. 3 cups of flour. Did not weigh anything and do not know the weight of the dough.
It's a 4-quart, cast iron DO. Not enameled. It is a pre-seasoned DO, but I seasoned it a couple of times with Crisco before using it for cooking. Before placing the dough in the DO to proof, I added a very thin layer of Crisco to the interior of the DO.
If I tried this in an enameled DO, I would still use Crisco on the interior before adding the dough based on the theory that if bread pans need shortening, so will DO's.
I'd be happy to volunteer to taste the two loaves to see if there is a difference in flavor. They both look spectacular.
Glenn
Good news!
There happens to be an unexpected vacancy on the tasting panel. Your application has been received and will be expeditiously reviewed by the Tasting Panel Admissions Committee. .... I am pleased to report that the TPAC has accepted your application. Congratulations!
David
I don't think I could stand to taste hundreds of pieces of mediocre bread. Let's just skip to the finals.
I'm training for my tasting panel duties with toasted Polish Country Rye.
Glenn
Not to worry. All the breads are above average. :-)
David
great side by side experiment. I have always had doubts about the cold pot..it certainly gives a great looking boule...much to my surprise...Thanks, David!
Sylvia
I really need to get a dutch oven to try this method!
sometimes they have great sales on them. Mine comes from there too, love it.
It is the one without feet, so I can use it on the stovetop as well.
anna
I have the Lodge cast iron pizza pan. The instructions call for placing the pizza dough in the pan, adding toppings, then putting the pan in the oven. Works great.
I have also placed the pizza pan in the oven and let it heat about 15 minutes or so, then used a pizza peel to place the topped pizza on the pan. Works great.
The pizzas are basically the same whether I use a cold or a heated cast iron pan. Both bottom crust and toppings done well. Oven at 450 degrees, next to bottom rack position, electric oven.
Was that the baking time did not seem to need increasing when using the cool DO method.
Comments?
David
I used the time suggested when using the Lahey recipe in a cast iron DO and checked the internal temperature with a probe thermometer. No problem. I was surprised the first time because I thought it would take longer
When doing the pizzas in a cold pan or a hot pan, the timing is about the same; within a minute. In those cases, I took the pizza out when the tops looked about right.
If you are also using cast iron or enameled cast iron, the reason must be the ability of the cast iron to conduct and retain heat. I know it is suggested that cast iron skillets be used at a lower heat setting than other skillets, and I do so.
In your post you say that "The loaf baked in the pre-heated dutch oven proofed for 45 minutes longer, while the other loaf was baking...In spite of the fact that the loaf baked first was relatively under-proofed, the loaf baked second, in a pre-heated Dutch oven, got slightly better bloom and oven spring."
Do you think that the difference in proofing time (rather than cold vs preheated Dutch Oven) could have accounted for the "slightly better bloom and oven spring" you got for the loaf baked in the preheated Dutch Oven?
thx - SF
Au contraire! The less proofed loaf should have had more oven spring. Now, it may be that both were somewhat under-proofed, but still ...
David
Hi David
Thanks for your tartine bread Dutch oven experiment!
I just register in TFL for say tahank you. But I can't submit . I try again.
Hi David
I'm a new baker. I see Jim Lahey 's pot bread in internet. So I try my earthware pot making Tartine bread 2 weeks ago. It's better than before. But not very good. So I search in internet. Find this blog. I see your aluminium dutch oven Tartine bead. So I use electric cooker aluminium pot making my bread. It's brown color. But hot aluminium pot let me no comfortable. So I bake Tartine whole wheat bread with cool aluminium pot in last weekend. the top colour and crack let me happy. Bread bottom color not brown. But it's already better than before.
So Thanks for your Tartine Dutch bread experiment!
I see your this experiment yesterday. I think I use cold pot again next time. Maybe I try take pot away after 35 minutes.
Nice experiment, David!
I have baked both cold start and preheated and not noticed much difference but never done the formal experiment. It is nice to see virtually identical results (seemingly well within the variability of loaves in general).
In my experience with ceramic cloches I did find that I preferred a longer covered bake - say 20 minutes vs. 15 before uncovering the loaf but I would tend to attribute that to the greater insulating properties of ceramics and resultant slower heating.
Hitting tepid ceramics with 500 degree heat is probably not advised but is clearly okay with cast iron.
In any event it is certainly easier to work with room temperature cookware than with 500 degrees!
Thanks!
Jay
David:
If the dutch oven doesn't need to be preheated, then the thinking that it wants an immediate blast of high heat with a continuous and stable temperature is not necessarily correct. If that's the case, then it shouldn't need a stone either. That would mean we simply use a baking sheet.
You've also written that an inverted heavy stainless steel bowl or aluminum pan works fine to cover it.
So it seems that we don't need expensive, hard-to-store, difficult-to-manipulate, and heavy dutch ovens or cloches. A trip to Goodwill for a $2.50 metal bowl and the baking sheet that we all have already is all that's needed.
Life just got simpler.
Jerry
I have been wrangling my old camp dutch oven to make boules, they come out much better than on a cookie sheet (though I do miss cooking more than one at a time. I have not tried starting them off in a cool DO, that will make things a bit easier. I just keep them on a bit of parchment which I use as a sling, the DO is in terrible shape (seasoning wise) but the thermal mass makes a lovely evenly cooked and beautifully golden loaf.
I did pick up a clay cooker at the goodwill recently for a couple bucks. Made some bread in there but the ghosts of past fish bakes made it all a little weird...
Curiously, guru Chad Robertson does it both ways. At the end of the "Master Method for Tartine Loaves" chapter in Tartine Book No 3-Modern Ancient Classic Whole, he prescriptively describes the dutch oven pre-heating approach.
In contrast, the "Chad Robertson masterclass i Meyers Madhus" video (www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIIjV6s-0cA) shows him working in and holding the pot barehanded as he loads it into the obviously hot commercial oven.
Several years have passed since almost all the posts in this thread. What are the currently preferred dutch oven practices and experiences of TFL bakers with Tartine and other no-kneed recipes.
My practice has not changed. I pre-heat the tops of my Lodge Combo Cookers but not the bottoms. Experience does not support the need to heat the tops, but I do it out of habit, I suppose.
David
Sorry, posted in error.
Are there posts which address using convection bake rather than simple bake, either for preheating or "baking" cold for a Tartine type loaf?
It seems that there are three stages possible for baking "cold": risen dough into cold DO then into preheated oven; risen dough into cold DO then into cold oven; risen dough into cold DO bottom then topped with preheated combo cooker top.
Further about cold: is it best to bring the overnight cooled dough to room temperature before baking, or is it satisfactory to send the dough from the refrigerator into the DO?
Still chasing the elusive Tartine loaf!
I generally do not use Convection bake when baking in Dutch ovens, but my oven heats very evenly, even without the convection fan going. Besides, the Dutch ovens distribute the heat evenly to the bread, at least as long as they are covered.
I guess I'd say that, if you know your oven heats very unevenly and you have a convection fan, use it.
I always pre-heat my oven - for an hour when baking on a pizza stone but only for 20 minutes (at baking temperature) when using DO's. I have not tested the cold loaves in cold DO's in cold oven condition.
I let the dough tell me when to bake. If it seems fully proofed right out of the fridge, I would bake it. If it needs more time, I give it. I don't really think the temperature of the loaf at the time you put it in the oven matters all that much. The degree of proofing does matter, IMO.
David
In her book English Bread and Yeast Cookery, Elizabeth David mentioned a trick professional bakers use
in Victorian times when baling loaves for competitions. After putting the loaf on the hearth, they covered
it with a metal hat they called a bonnet. I tried this by proofing a batard in a big stainless steel roaster.
After the appropriate slashing and brushing with plain water, I put the whole works in the oven.
Worked beautifully. You could hear the crust singing across the street.
(I did increase the baking time 15 minutes to allow the roaster to warm up.)
There was a lot of interest in this method back around 2009 with TFL members using stainless steel bowls, Pyrex bowls (not recommended!), roaster covers and other covers. I think interest declined when Chad Robertson's book and Mark Bittman's NYT article about Jim Lahey's "No Knead Bread" came out recommending baking in Dutch Ovens.
David
Is this thread still active? Good discussions above. I recently baked a sourdough Jewish Rye (based on David's excellent recipe) starting with a cold DO which I set it on a preheated baking stone. It was a mistake as the bottom of the loaf was not done enough. To remedy the problem I popped the loaf out then put in upside down into the still hot DO and finished it off nicely. I think the stone was not preheated long enough but now I think maybe better to set the DO directly on the rack.
So my question is: how would you modify baking instructions/temps when using a DO vs open or in a loaf pan? For example your Jewish rye instructions preheat to 500, drop to 460 with steam, then drop to 440 or 425 to finish, depending on loaf size. How would you modify these directions, if at all? I'm not going to use a stone under the DO this time. I did remove the lid near the end of cooking last time which helped brown the otherwise nicely soft crust and flipping the loaf finished it off nicely. I get the feeling there is a lot of "slack" when it comes to detailed baking instructions and the main key is to let the bread tell you when it's ready.
Happy to hear your thoughts.
Lee
I have never baked high% rye bread or jewish Sour Rye in a Dutch oven. I have baked several different multigrain sourdough breads both ways. In general, I bake at a slightly lower temperature on a baking stone than in a Dutch oven, for example, 460ºF versus 475ºF for a 900g loaf. These days, I even lower the oven temp from 475 to 460ºF after I uncover the DO. That gives me the degree of darkness I prefer for the crust.
I certainly endorse your statement about letting the dough tell you what to do in order to have the end result as you prefer it.
David
Thanks David.
I essentially have been using the multiple step souring technique you described in your Jewish Rye recipe to non-rye sourdough breads I've been making lately (eg whole wheat, AP/Durham wheat mix, AP pizza dough), that is, building up the levain in steps. I too am a big fan of strong sour taste and my other baking conceit is to not use any added yeast. Unlike your rye recipe, many others call for discarding some or most of the newly activated starter, or using it for something else. I don't understand this. Is this to avoid sourness or some other rationale?
Lee, amateur baker in VT
I was not very happy handling the very hot Dutch oven for placing the dough in it. I saw your post and tried the cold Dutch oven and it worked nicely. The extension of the idea was: What if I start with a cold oven too? So I did. And it worked ok too. So now I bake my sourdough this way. I place the dough in the cold Dutch oven and this one into a cold oven. Then I start the oven (electric in my case) and let it cook for 45-50 min at 230C. Then I remove the lid and let it cook for another 20-25 min more. Obviously, part of the first step is just the oven heating up. I find this method renders similar results to the use of a preheated oven and a preheated Dutch oven. But I would like to hear about other experiences too.
I also have baked bread in a cold Dutch Oven and it succeeded very well. Thinking about it, a slower warmup should give the microorganisms more time in their optimal growth zone. So I expected good expansion. Also, the crust should stay soft and pliable for longer when starting from cold, and that would also promote good expansion.
I suppose that if the loaf were overfermented then it wouldn't be able to grow as much during the heating up period, or might even run into trouble.
Now I have proved to myself that baking on a stone gives better results than no stone, a double stone layer better yet, and a baking steel even better results - in terms of improved volume and crust. So why the difference between hearth baking and DO baking? I think it's the use of steam. Steam cools the crust (because it condenses as water on the crust), slows the crust's drying process, and helps to gelatinized the crust. These all keep the crust soft longer, which would allow for more expansion of the loaf. The steam will also cool the oven's air temperature, again prolonging the growth window.
On a hearth, this process will last only so long before the crust cooks enough that it can't expand any more. The baking steel or stone helps to conduct a lot of heat into the bottom of the loaf early in the bake. This promotes growth of the yeast before the crust stiffens up too much. Without the high heat capacity of a stone or steel, less heat will go into the bottom of the loaf and there will be less of a rise in the short time before the crust stiffens up.
Putting a cover over the loaf should have a beneficial effect for the same reasons as the steam, though it will provide less gelatinization since there will be less moisture on the crust (but the cover will keep some of the loaf's moisture in, so the difference may not be too much).
I have noticed that a typical hearth-baked loaf will reach nearly its full final size in five minutes or less. That's all the time the loaf has to rise before it's too late.